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107953-the-nexus-report-nerfing-the-attunement-page-3
Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6, Page 7, Page 8 Content True, the argument has been made over and over that if they would be let into raids everything will be alright. These changes will make things easier for both new and existing guilds and give guilds closer to DS a bigger pool to recruit or even snipe players from, so if at least GA remains untouched we can all win from this. So we'll see although in my honest opinion X89 is a fairly easy and forgiving encounter on several fronts, after that things ramp up slowly i find that GA has a good progression curve. I honestly would be surprised if we didn't see a few complain posts a week after these changes about raids. Together with the request to make raids smaller as finding 20 players is too hard. | |} ---- LIke I said back on page 3 or something - wait and see. If they start nerfing content due to posts of outrage then ok, you can all come back and scream I told you so. They had to do something - the game was in serious jeopardy if they didn't. Is this the best solution? Not at all. I personally don't mind the timer and would rather see a change to make the whole attunement non-linear. I think that would have been a much better solution. But I'm guessing that would take way longer to implement and this isn't exactly a patient crowd. | |} ---- Ok..ill put the guard dogs back in their kennels... | |} ---- If the barrier was getting to attuned then the barrier was lowered. There's no shift since attunement and completing raids are two different topics. Please stop with the baseless assumptions about complaining being anyone's first response and their performance in dungeons. It does not apply to everyone. My complaints about timers was simply about them not teaching anything about raids and being inconsistent with the Wildstar's content. I've never said anything about me not being able to get silvers. Bronze does require some level of consistency, it's more than none.(Something you are dancing around.) The level of consistency to meet timers in Silver runs is not what CRB wants and they no longer believe that Silver is the basis to measure skill for attunement. How long the dungeons last was not the issue with attunement. People have been running progression teams and learning dungeons for hours a day just to meet the time requirement. Not WoW. Your "concern" is invalid. Provided you aren't getting bugs, hacking, or in some way cheating the system you are always experiencing the content as intended but if that feather in your hat makes you happy, enjoy. Raids have different bars to reach. Of course a higher level of effort will need to be used. Even people with Silver medals had to increase the amout of effort input. | |} ---- I would rather express my feedback here and prevent a change of direction for the game than come back with an "I told you so" post. | |} ---- I agree with this.. the real pinnacle of all the hard content is getting that artifact weapon and imbued in the end anyways. | |} ---- Then maybe you shouldn't have started your opening post with how you had to EARN your attunement and how these changes made all that MEANINGLESS. Because that sentiment and the one you're now claiming was your original intent are quite different. | |} ---- Yes!!! I just had to listen to weeks of senseless whining about how "timers don't make sense." If I begin to accept that premise, then what you have left is skill. Is it so wrong to require skill before entering the hardest raid an MMORPG has ever seen? I think no player dying would be an excellent measure of that. | |} ---- ---- It's alright Yas, I know it can be hard to make it to the bottom of a post. Here's what my post says: Thanks for proving my point, though. | |} ---- No, that's precisely it… its not flawed logic at all. That's precisely what will happen. If they felt this barrier was costing them players, the next barrier will too - nerfs will be constant. | |} ---- They do that and in three months you don't have a game anymore. People were already leaving and fed up with the current system. That would just exacerbate the problem. I don't know why a compromise couldn't just be to remove the linear nature of the process. Would make it easier for people to help each other. | |} ---- I mean, it's a win-win as far as I'm concerned. On the one hand, this may open it up for more potential raiders who were simply not interested in the overall timers. This may make it easier to attune other members of a guild to be able to more easily replace people on alternate raid nights. And on the other hand, oh... the delicious tears once a few people crash into GA and find out that it wasn't the timers keeping them from raiding. If they fail in the raid, they'll find little sympathy here. | |} ---- ---- Nope, no timeline released. | |} ---- This is not me gloating Leth. I told you it was a pointless battle when the guys at the top of the Food Chain, so to speak, started dissing it. It is not just the perceived bads that didn't like it. When the people at the top of the pyramid started to complain it was obvious what needed to happen. | |} ---- Not "Soon" Enough? ;) | |} ---- It isn't fair to assume they won't do as they've said. I still say as long as CONTENT is not nerfed, I don't see the problem. Why do people care who gets into other guilds raids? Everyone can control their own recruitment process. Why does it matter so much? | |} ---- Nope, it's entirely sensible to require players to understand how their character works (level 50 requirement), what their role is in a group (dungeon/adventures requirements), and how to be part of a large group (world boss/event) requirements as conditions to ENTERING a raid. And those now ARE the conditions to enter a raid. So nicely done, Carbine. WINNING a raid should require considerably more skill than is required just to enter it, but that's the role of the raid itself and not the attunement process. The skill requirements to enter a raid should never even be close to the skill requirements to win the raid. | |} ---- "Must have had Attunement Completed beforedate" seems viable. 8 months from now it will seem silly though haha. | |} ---- I couldn't possibly care less about the "top of the food chain" and in this instance they should ESPECIALLY be ignored. After 2 iterations (first the loot, now this) remnants of an existing system behind clung to… to retain players? That's not the right reason. This is a bad design for the game. This change deserves a reversal, or an immediate "this is not final…" response. Discussion of other options such as a timer-less gold run instead of bronze need to be on the table for WildStar to retain any sense of its soul. | |} ---- They *just* did something they said they would not do. | |} ---- Those are conditions - PROOF is what gold in a dungeon would do for me. | |} ---- Uh, the only thing you need to prove that you can do dungeons and adventures is a bronze. Edited August 13, 2014 by BusterCasey Content | |} ---- I disagree. I'm going to go click the re-subscribe button now :D . I suggest we all start putting this energy towards the next issue which is the Amp and Ability Upgrade system. This battle is over. The Amp system is going to hurt the game down the line. That is something I think we can all agree on. For the record it was never about the difficulty for me. It was about having people to play the game with above all else. P.S. I don't think Carbine will be forced to back down from Hard Content in Raids. Everyone who showed up was expecting that. They were not expecting the gate. | |} ---- No deaths would be quite an achievement... they should have a psycho god mode on some of the content with special vanity drops and titles..that way the hardest of the hardcore has something to show for and the rest can go...oooooh sparkly! | |} ---- No, you could have died 30 times. That doesn't help me or my raid team. Bronze… I mean is it even possible to NOT get bronze? No, I feel requiring Gold with no timer is the fair compromise - ensures skill, but removes the main thing everyone was bitching about all these weeks - timers. | |} ---- ---- Some will never accept that the problem is behind the PC and not the game in front of them, it's not a matter of sympathy but pure denial. Luckily we still reserve the option to merely remove said individuals from our guilds and raid groups and never worry about them, as Right now we still need to evaluate players in raids the attunement didn't do our "job" for us, it will simply mean processing more players some will fail some won't. Now if we would actually get a change to lock outs from instances to just bosses that would really make a guilds life easier and give us more leeway to trial people. I think we can even hold a bet, Wondering what the next biggest complaint will be, My top 3 is, "Trash is too hard", "20 mans are too large, can't find 20 players", "WTF is up with these egg rooms". Yes i'm not even touching the actual bosses or even mini-bosses yet, although Genetic monstrosity will be food for tears. | |} ---- Technically speaking. They didn't nerf any content they said they wouldn't, that being dungeons and raids. Their difficulty remains unchanged. It's only the attunement that got eased up and they never made a statement about that. I rather have them not touching the medal system for the sake of the attunement process, If players are bad any decent guild has ways to deal with them in the recruitment process the attunement being there or not didn't change this process. | |} ---- Why are players able to post if you aren't subscribed? That needs to change, pronto. I'm so tired of playing games with players who refuse to put in effort commensurate to reward - they just want reward. Now that you don't have to try, you're coming back? I absolutely hate what the players of the games in this genre have become. | |} ---- The system isnt to bad.. i would like to see it more attached to longetivity and not plat or elder gems..So characters that have been around for a long time would naturally have more.. but not having more isnt game breaking either. | |} ---- I agree, and to add to this, most pugs, for example, spend 20 mins in STL and 60+ mins on Stormtalon himself. This adds nothing to anything. Killing him should be enough. | |} ---- Are we betting? My top three: 1. When are we going to see changes to this world boss bullshit? 2. GA is bugged/enemies/bosses are unkillable 3. I can't get enough gear to even kill the first trash. Gearing is another game lock. Balf may have unsubscribed but still had his account active. Unsubscribing keeps your account active for the rest of the month. | |} ---- I used CREDD for this month. Again. It was never about Difficulty for me. I don't get it dude. Are you upset because the game probably won't be going F2P now or because you'll have more people to play it with? *snickers* | |} ---- you'll just have to get better at recruiting. 1 run through any vet dungeon should give you a pretty good idea of whether this players is going to die constantly. | |} ---- I am aware of what you feel is a fair compromise. FYI? All those people getting carried through attunement don't help you or your raid team either, and yet you have learned to survive in spite of them. Are they ruining your experience? Do you believe they should be ejected from raids if they got carried? YOU are free to require a Gold medal for inclusion in YOUR raid team, of course. Several people have noted that mechanisms exist to allow you to do this. Your raid team remains pure and unsullied. Heck, keep the requirement for a timer in place while you're at it. Go for it. I don't care. I have no interest in being on your raid team, ever--nor do I have any illusions that you would ever find my presence on your raid team tolerable. As I've said already, I believe Carbine did the right thing here and brought the requirements for even being allowed to set foot in a raid at about the spot where they should be. You are, of course, free to have a differing opinion. | |} ---- I'm upset because this won't change anything in regards to player retention, and only lead to raid content nerfs. I'm upset because it looks like I have to leave the game that I've followed since it's announcement, visited the studio on many occasions, and even run a fan site for. | |} ---- Not right now it isn't since you can clear things without being fully maxed. The problems with the current system begin when I want to pull a friend in the game down the road. The current system is a potential Roadblock to growth, basically. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- its the exact same problem, basically. right now, its 20 mins in STL, then 60+ mins on Stormtalon himself. in your proposal instead of wiping once or twice before disbanding, it will only take 1 wipe .. so its actually worse. | |} ---- They already fixed the loot problem, and this would speak volumes to their belief about needing a well-practed team to tackle difficult group content, instead of 5 warm bodes. I mean, is it not up to players who really want to raid to rally 4 like-minded players to get it done? If they're putting up with wipe-n-runs then its on them - they can easily find players who will not do that if they are serious about raiding. | |} ---- No it ensure's elitism and very few ppl experiencing endgame.. what yur suggesting is a system with 0 margin for error and what would be left behind is a very small group of individuals that cannot sustain the income the game would need to support itself.. plus it seems yours and my idea of fun are completely different. | |} ---- ---- Actually, since it turns out I can read, your post says considerably more than you just quoted. What you just quoted was at the very end of a rather long and multipointed note about how upsetting the current changes were and how they diluted your elite experience. Perhaps you intended for your last sentence to be your central point, but it was pretty unrelated to the entire rest of the text and it looked to me like more of an afterthought. I realize that you might like to claim otherwise now that people have called you out on it, but the fact remains that your original post unambiguously covered a lot more than the potential for the current change to set precedent for future hypothetical nerfs. | |} ---- Well, guild is gone anyway. They won't be coming back. This change was too little, too late for them. Now I have to decide whether to bother with the year long elder gem grind, mindless dailies and terrible dungeons after hitting max level on my esper or follow my friends. Hopefully, these changes will save some of the guilds and circles that are on the verge of breaking up. Stop editing me. Seriously. Edited August 13, 2014 by Loiterer Content | |} ---- i can see that, but .. immortal .. doesnt really have any bearing on anything. That isn't how raids work. How are you going to know if that person wasn't carried? You aren't. You are going to have to interview and maybe run a dungeon with recruits to really know. meanwhile those of us that aren't hardcore will be able to chip away at raid content at a casual pace, well behind you. now if they over-nerf raid content, I will probably complain. that being said, a little gentle nerfing as time goes on, when you are finished with datascape and looking to Eldan Lab #18289348 ... isnt really a big deal either, and I suspect you will see that / would have seen that regardless of this decision. maybe not. ive been in hardcore guilds, and it never bothered me how much or little people that weren't hardcore could or couldnt clear, as long as there was challening content for me to partake in. | |} ---- ---- Actually, I have a related question for you that you appear to have ignored, so I'll ask it again. Your thoughts on people getting carried? Don't they break the "skill" portion of the promise even more than people completing attunements with Bronze? | |} ---- ---- Don't unsub, just buy CREDD! I guarantee there's somebody out there willing to subsidize your gaming experience. Carbine does make improvements, even if it doesn't seem like it at any given time. I get the feeling like they'll do pretty much anything to keep their baby alive. Edited August 13, 2014 by BusterCasey Content | |} ---- I think the silvers will be in a better place, now. They were balanced around being a challenge for people to attempt when running the veteran dungeons--after learning them. However, when added to the attunement they became a 'wall' instead of an 'achievement.' Additionally, I believe that Genetic Archives has turned out very positively and this change allows more players to see some of what (in my rather biased opinion) is some of the strongest content Wildstar has to offer--all without the need to reduce its difficulty. | |} ---- I can't wait. | |} ---- Maybe it didn't have anything to do with subscription numbers. Eh? | |} ---- But Brett, how does letting less skilled, less organized, or less social players into a place that requires all of those things x10 actually make a better experience for them? | |} ---- Quoted for people who want to throw him a like lol | |} ---- You wouldn't be able to carry anyone if they couldn't stay alive… hence the reasoning for Gold requirements. With no timers. | |} ---- You are to do nothing. I fought for them to get access. I'm not going to fight for them to have it easy. :D | |} ---- How about you let the players themselves be the judges of that instead of sticking to some weird idea of benevolent gatekeeping? They don't need some kind of patronizing "shepherd caste" to keep them from getting hurt by the eeeevul meanie raid bosses. | |} ---- To be fair, that's what we're paying them for. Agreed. As long as the difficulty remains as it is. Lethality may be having a bit of a meltdown, but while I agree in principle with the changes, his point stands that this really shouldn't be part of that slippery slope. I saw your post earlier about the dungeons only getting easier with the amp/ability point increases. That's a hard line, right? | |} ---- | |} ---- When did they ever say they would not examine or adjust the attunement process? | |} ---- Right you are. I suppose my point is that they are doing what we pay them for. Or what we let somebody else pay them for. :) | |} ---- How is getting easier ACCESS to a raid getting some kind of reward? As I've brought up many times, attunement does not equal progress in the raid - you know where rewards come from. | |} ---- The designers themselves are the ones who decided that players wouldn't be judging that for themselves - the process and test of skill would. But so much for that. | |} ---- ---- if there only job is to not die, while 4 other ppl kill stuff ... yes ... they were carried. | |} ---- Why. Do. You. Care? It is THEIR experience, not yours. There is nothing wrong with making content more accessible, as long as you don't make said content easier. | |} ---- ---- ---- I like this. Thanks TT for reassuring everyone | |} ---- He, and others like him, want to pretend that the current Raid base didn't swap exploit. On top of that, quite a few of them are killing Raid bosses. Gold or not actual Raiding will always determine your skill as a Raider. Not gates. | |} ---- Yes, and they realized it was a mistake. "Process and test of skill" should decide what content you can pass separately, not sequentially. Which is also why the "you can only do attunement step 3 after 2 after 1" stuff is extremely silly, but that's a discussion for another thread. Point is, it's ridiculous to expect paying customers to accept that someone is standing in front of the pearly gates of the game's best content and saying "Sorry you're not good enough to even see this outside of Youtube/Twitch". No. Not going to happen. Be realistic. | |} ---- ---- Hey, either or. :) | |} ---- Again the content has not been dumb down, the HARD is still there...Why are you mad about something that does not affect you? Keep on going for silvers and gold and getting better, People getting attune by doing bronze that are not in your guild does not affect you... | |} ---- well, no one will have to pay for my sub. | |} ---- Yea. Did they give an ETA? I wonder if TimeTravel can help us out here. :D | |} ---- Soontm | |} ---- You say this now. You've already broken that trust with this nerf if it goes through, so how can you be trusted to keep your word on this? All you've done is prove if these terrible casuals whine cry and stomp their feet enough you'll cater to them. | |} ---- In the current state of things is the population rising or dropping? | |} ---- The main problem with the timers was people just leaving on the first death. It basically meant if you didn't have a guild group to help you (to make sure people stuck around, not because of difficulty) were going to be bashing your head on each dungeon, for days in some cases. Requiring zero deaths to get attunement would keep the same problem. It would also make attunement more difficult than it was before. I don't see how that's a compromise. | |} ---- True. I feel the same way now that I felt when they implemented their massive polish update in beta. As in, I am confident that they'll keep making their game better and better. | |} ---- The trust has been broken guys, The end of the world is near!!! PANIC PANIC!!!! Again, Content has not been NERF, the content is still hard. Attunement is not Content is Fictional Gating | |} ---- Because THEIR feedback is going to be based on THEIR experience, which is going to be EVEN WORSE than not being able to get a simple Silver on a dungeon! | |} ---- ---- Except the devs have already said, in this very thread, that they won't nerf the content. They never said anything about not nerfing the attunement process. In fact, they hinted very early on that it wasn't meeting their expectations. Edit: ^^ Great minds think alike. | |} ---- Yes, and as long as the result is not a nerf to content, what does it matter? TT has already said they won't nerf it and implied he is eager for their tears. Where is the problem? | |} ---- Because they *will* nerf it. All this is doing is moving the barrier a little further down the road. The same set of players who complained and couldn't get a Silver will now be a the stage where they can't get a raid kill. Not a single one. What will Carbine do? Will they let the players go at that point? But why, when they went to the lengths of saving them now? Likely they will… nerf the content. You promised I was on ignore. But I appreciate not being there ;) | |} ---- and when the content doesnt meet their expectations? | |} ---- They won't nerf content immediately, but if you think that Raids won't be nerfed as new Tiers open up I'd like to be the 1st to congratulate you on your 1st MMORPG. | |} ---- They said, literally as late as today, in this very thread, they will not do that. So which is it? | |} ---- When that happens, well then we've always been at war with Eastasia! Kidding aside, I think their expectations are for sweet and salty tears of rage, just not from inability to access the content. Not to say that way down the line they won't nerf the raids to get people into the next tier faster, whenever it is that they make the next tier. | |} ---- They've already said that it does. | |} ---- From earlier, for those that missed it. | |} ---- ---- currently sir...currently | |} ---- ---- I think they meant there won't be any "knee-jerk" nerfs(but you already knew this). GA has been getting cleared for well over a month. There's no need to nerf it. TBH it's pretty much a non-issue at this time. When GA is no longer progression I don't think any experienced MMORPGer expects it to remain as is. You have to make sure new players can catch up within a decent time frame. | |} ---- I highly doubt they need to nerf the content. That conversation has already been going around, much to the dev's amusement. I think the "attunement is a gate" talk annoys them somewhat, since they want people to cry about the difficulty of the raids. That is what they banked their PVE experience on publicly, that their raids are harder than Russel Brand on two viagra compared to everyone else. | |} ---- Hi. You never answered my question from earlier. Is the population rising or falling atm? | |} ---- Exactly. They WANT people to be in their raids, getting their faces smashed in. | |} ---- ---- If anything, this game needs more popular streamers, not less. | |} ---- ---- You mean the Wall that's still there? They changed 1 part. They did not fully remove it. | |} ---- ---- ---- So... basically, you're just fine with carries. Your only requirement of them is that some uberteam can move them through a dungeon without getting them killed. XD Yeah. OK. You're a real champion of upholding the purity of raiding skills there. | |} ---- ---- ---- Truth. I'm kind of chuckling reading that, because I'm remembering way back when, like around Naxx, that people were trying to put together PUGs in LFG for things like Molten Core in WoW. And I sat in my raid guild thinking, "Wow... sure as Hell glad I'm not in that. They're not even going to get through Lucifron." | |} ---- You mean like being able to exploit the first boss in ST to get him to skip a stage, or using an unintended shortcut to bypass all the mobs on the way to the last boss? People are bragging about buying runs now? I'm not saying that all people who got Silver have used exploits or have been carried, but Silver loses much of its prestige when you consider that players have already discovered ways to get it without having to exhibit any superior skills. Dropping the Silver requirement may have the effect of more low-skilled people trying raids, but it will also increase the number of skilled people trying raids as well. | |} ---- ---- Yup totally agree. However, I believe at the same time they need to add more incentives for getting silver/gold. | |} ---- ---- ---- Yeah I agree, people saying there are no correlation between being able to complete dungeons on silver and being able to do raids are absolutely clueless. It's not like you have to do a speedrun to get silver, you just can't *cupcake* up a lot(neither can you in raids). | |} ---- From what i've seen on the forms, most people didn't have any complaints about the difficulty of the instances themselves. People were complaining about the Content gate. Carbine responded by adjusting the content gate without adjusting the difficulty of the content. Your precious raid is safe. | |} ---- ---- ---- Majority of people blocked by attunement were stuck on the dungeon phase. This directly addresses that problem. | |} ---- If you can't even see the basic fact that the difficulty of the task hasn't been nerfed, why did you even post? The timers had nothing to do with difficulty, nothing to do with skill. | |} ---- They have not complain about the difficulty of the instances because they were not able to do silver. Simple as that. I do not agree and i would love to see your definition of hardcore? I surely think that time and difficulty are a big part of beeing hardcore in the MMO world. | |} ---- If easier content difficulty doesn't suit you... remove your armor. Fight naked, then brag about it. I would be impressed. | |} ---- ---- ---- Finishing on silver means skipping content. Killing a raid boss is exactly the opposite, you're actually doing content instead of avoiding it. Do raids, not bosses, do raids have a timer? The answer is no they don't. Any other answer means you're not smart enough to make a valid comparison. You are not forced to avoid trash content in a raid and rush to the boss to kill it before a certain time while also completing random side quests or you don't get credit. You are simply required to get there, execute a strategy before the party wipes due to healers run dry on resources or players die due to repeated opportunity to make lethal mistakes or the fight has a hard or soft enrage that kills you, and then you loot. And if you fail you just do it again, and again, and again, and when you do win you get credit and loot. Just like almost every boss in every game. There are a few exceptions around (Algalon used to for example). Wildstar currently doesn't have any raid time limits. | |} ---- Indeed, bads will still hit a wall at GA until they either get better or don't and do other stuff. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Again. WHY DOES IT MATTER? This is better for the overall raid-pool and the health of the game. You don't want people in your raids that can't get silver? Fine, don't invite them. Problem solved. | |} ---- ---- ---- They could have spent their time coming up with a silver requirement that better reflects raid environments. Instead they are just lowering the requirement in order to silence the people whining about how hard it is. This cave in from carbine is proof that the entire system was half baked and not fully thought out to begin with. Why does it matter? This shows an inherent weakness in the design of the game and rather than come up with an intelligent solution they simply take the easy route and take the requirements down a notch. EVERYTHING about attunement after this change is puggable! Adventures, dungeons and world bosses will ALL be EASILY puggable after this change. This begs the question. Why have an attunement process to begin with if you're going to make it easily puggable? Ask yourself what attunement proves if this change comes to pass. Attunement will no longer be reflective of any amount of skill at all! It will be little more than a time sync that requires you to queue for adventues, dungeons and then to camp world bosses for a week or two. On top of all of this, what about the people who have already put in the effort of going through attunement before the change? How is one to feel about the dumbing down of requirements after they have put the hours of effort in? I'm not even totally done attunement myself, and I can tell you that I would not be too pleased with this. | |} ---- ---- Or you could, like let the population dwindle to two raiding guilds in NA alone. Maybe one in EU. Here's the entire point, it's not about difficulty so much as it's about time. Do I have time to sit there and try 5 or 6 times a dungeon to get silver? Yes, do I have the skill? Absolutely, *cupcake* back when I cared about this shit I downed M'uru pre nerf. The actual question is, do I want to? No. I honestly don't, that's the beauty of my life though, I have a lot of other enjoyable things to do that I have zero desire to focus on one thing. | |} ---- You mean all the poor souls who exploited encounters, did jumping puzzles or purchased silver runs? Those poor souls! Sure, not everyone did that but TONS did. But srsly, why does it matter? They aren't nerfing content....so some people, that aren't skilled enough for raids get to zone into GA. They won't kill anything, they won't get loot or rewards. What is the harm? The bonus is the raid community will get a shot in the arm of quality players that haven't found the right guild yet and therefore haven't found good groups to work through Silvers. | |} ---- ---- Exactly. Even in everyone''s go to shining example of gaming "WoW" the attunement process was eliminated. Sure you could zone into Sunwell, didn't mean you'd kill anything but you weren't blocked from doing so. | |} ---- ---- The dungeons are still challenging, and the attunement process is now an encouragement for group content. The more you spam them for gear with people, Silver will come more naturally. The way it was, when you fail once people quit. That's not a good introduction for how raids actually are. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- The main argument was that people didn't have the time to complete this and they shouldn't be forced to. It doesn't make them less of a player | |} ---- I think a little of that, but I recall primarily that the timers themselves just did not equate to a player not being capable of handling raids, with bronze being sufficient enough as opposed to time or something to that nature. | |} ----